Interview: David Nelmark on MMA in New York
David Nelmark is a partner at Belin McCormick in Des Moines IA, and is also the publisher of Mixed Martial Arts Law Blog. In his blog, David covers legal and rules stories that affect the world of mixed martial arts. Recently, he looked into Jon Jones’ DQ loss to Matt Hamill. In an effort to service MAMMA’s fans in the Empire State, David and I discussed the fight to legalize MMA in New York.
Q: David, mixed martial arts law is a hell of a niche to carve out for yourself, so before we really get into the meat of the matter, if you could, just introduce yourself to us.
DN: I am a partner with the Belin McCormick law firm in Des Moines, Iowa, where I live with my wife and 3-year-old son. I grew up in Iowa, but have lived all over the country including two stints in Las Vegas. The first time I was a Public Relations intern at Caesars Palace where I helped promote some big boxing events. The second time, in 2004, I worked for Andre Agassi, who is friends with the Fertittas. In a bit of foreshadowing, I ended up providing some informal legal advice to the UFC about their online store when they were gearing it up in anticipation of the debut of the first season of The Ultimate Fighter. MixedMartialArtsLawBlog.com is actually my second go-round in writing about combat sports. While in law school at Stanford, I was the Northern California correspondent for Fightnews.com.
And what was it about MMA that compelled you to, I don’t know if specialize is the word, but commit a good part of your attention to legal issues in the sport?
I’ve been a fan of MMA since I ordered the first UFC pay-per-view back in 1993. I have a tremendous amount of respect for the sport itself, the fighters who put their lives on the line to put on a good show for the fans, and the promoters who make the events possible. My main areas of legal practice are civil litigation and intellectual property (patents, trademarks, and copyrights), which are both issues that fighters and promoters encounter regularly. So, trying to help those in the industry was a natural development.
Here on the East Coast we’re waiting on pins and needles for the New York State to legalize mixed martial arts. Let’s get elementary here. Why does the sport of MMA need to be regulated at the state level? Other non-combat sports aren’t sanctioned this way, so why do boxing and MMA require state oversight?
Most non-combat sports are regulated in some fashion. Take football for example. At the high school level, its rule are typically set by a statewide athletic association. In college, you have the NCAA. In the pros you have the NFL which acts as a governing body. In mixed martial arts, you have individual promotions like the UFC and Strikeforce, but no broader governing body. In the absence of state regulations, a promoter could put on an event with no rules. With combat sports that have a significant, inherent amount of danger, regulations are the key to keeping fighters safe.
There are, of course, “underground” fights happening regularly, particularly in New York City. What, if any, jeopardy are those promoters and fighters putting themselves in by competing in unsanctioned fights?
I’m not licensed to practice in New York so this should not be deemed legal advice, but in my view the New York code that regulates “Boxing, Sparring, and Wrestling” allows for matches in those disciplines and single martial arts like Judo or Tae Kwon Do, but expressly prohibits other “combative sports.” It goes on to say that anyone who profits from participation in a combat sport can be criminally charged with a Class A misdemeanor or faced with a $10,000 fine (and those are only for first offenses). Assault charges are another possibility.
I read recently that with the calendar flipping from 2009 to 2010, a bill to legalize the sport has to start all over. What is the process to legalize the sport, and besides vocal supporters like Dana White, who exactly is pressing the issue in Albany?
It’s like the old SchoolHouse Rock on “How a Bill Becomes a Law.” It has to be passed by the House and the Senate, and then either get signed by the Governor, become a law if the Governor fails to act, or be passed by a supermajority to overcome a Governor’s veto. Assuming one of those three paths moves to completion, MMA would be “legal” in New York, but it still wouldn’t be “regulated.” The athletic commission has to adopt rules to oversee the sport.
The bill itself might have to start over, but the real work is behind the scenes and that will still pay dividends in 2010. Although Dana White and other promoters are the main lobbyists for the pending legislation, it was introduced by Assemblyman Steven Englebright. It has plenty of support from other legislators who want to see the state receive the revenue that MMA events would bring.
In the last month the war on New York seemed to gain some steam. Former NYSAC commissioner Randy Gordon came out in support of MMA, and Massachussetts legalized the sport. How much weight will actions like that carry when the issues comes up in the state house?
I think both developments are huge. Anytime a critic changes course, it gets attention. Here it’s especially important in light of Gordon’s former role. The Massachusetts regulation also creates a lot of momentum for two reasons. First, the passage was by such a large margin, that MMA’s critics have to start seeing themselves as outliers. Second, when New York legislators see the UFC at the TD Garden in Boston instead of Madison Square Garden, it provides a vibrant illustration of the tax revenue they are losing to neighboring states.
What are the sports opponents’ claims? Is it more than just John McCain’s “human cock fighting”?
There are still shades of that old rhetoric, but today the popular spin is “how can we let our children watch this?” I think that is laughable as any parent who has had a child participate in a combat sport be it wrestling, Tae Kwon Do or boxing, will tell you that it gives kids discipline and makes them less likely to engage in street fights. The only credible argument against MMA is one of safety, but to be consistent you’d also have to ban boxing (which is more dangerous in my view). And, as you noted, without regulation there are still underground fights which, because of the absence of regulation, are far more dangerous.
What is a realistic timetable for legalization?
I think New York will legalize MMA by the end of 2010.
In your opinion, will we see the UFC at Madison Square Garden in the next 12 months?
Probably not. Once the sport is legalized, you still need to pass administrative rules and get other ducks in a row. That said, Dana will probably get something on the calendar as soon as the initial bill passes. For the event itself, I think we’re looking at 2011.
As is tradition on The Intarwebz, the last question is always an open mic. Final thoughts?
Now that 42 states (and counting) have legalized mixed martial arts, I think the next major legal issue is regulation of amateur MMA. It’s a complicated issue because regulation requires money and it’s hard to ask people who are fighting for free to pay for things like blood work. On the other hand, a casual MMA fan can’t distinguish between pro and amateur fights and the sport’s critics will jump on any mishaps that occur at amateur events, whether or not they are regulated. It will be interesting to see how it shakes out.
Thanks for giving me the opportunity to reach out to your readers.
I want to thank David for taking some time out during the holidays to run through this issue with us. His site, MMA Law Blog is a must-bookmark for serious MMA fans, fighters and industry insiders. He takes the man, these judges suck argument further by actually looking at the rulebook.
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